Ask Engadget HD: How do you evaluate HDTVs in-store?
We all know the situation, there's a series of impossibly large numbers on the spec card, the quality of the lighting is questionable, and a salesman who may or may not know anything about televisions is droning on about the death of plasma. Still, you want a new HDTV, and this is where the televisions are. What Sean wants to know is, how do you figure out the right set for you in a retail setting?"Can anyone recommend video test files used to check the capabilities of HDTVs? It would be great to walk into an electronics store with a USB stick loaded full of video files to test color, contrast, motion etc. and see which performs best. Has anyone ever had success bringing in some of their own equipment to test with the televisions in-store? When I'm checking out different televisions, what differences should I be looking at to pick the right one?"
We've gotten a few handy anecdotes on how to evaluate televisions in even the worst store conditions, and we've seen enough specs to know they're never to be trusted without an independent evaluation, but as an informed buyer, what are you doing to tip the scales towards your specific interests, and not just what pads the stores sales or salesman's commission?
Got a burning question that you'd love to toss out for Engadget HD (or its readers) to take a look at? Tired of Google's blank stares when you ask for real-world experiences? Hit us up at ask at engadgethd dawt com and keep an eye on this space -- your inquiry could be next.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Brian @ Oct 21st 2009 12:38PM
I just bought myself a new 55" HDTV and I spend 3 days going to various stores to check out the diffrent models. On the 3rd and final day I spend 2 or 3 hours just looking at test videos on 3 diffrent TV models and trying to play with all the settings. I really wish there was a way to just to be able to doing something like a USB stick with test videos to play. It would have saved hours off my time of testing new TV.
still.reprise @ Oct 21st 2009 12:52PM
If you go into a Magnolia Home Theater with an appropriate Blu-ray disc they should let you pop it in and play with the remote. If someone brings in content we never mind letting a customer view it. However, in most instances in-store feeds are fixed and it's fairly difficult to change content (i.e. in a "regular" Best Buy).
Generally you should be looking at black levels, color accuracy (not over saturated, proper skin tones), lack of sharpening artifacts, and aliasing as well as motion artifacts/blur (i.e. don't look at large LCDs).
Wryker @ Oct 21st 2009 12:55PM
The key is not what the TV looks like in the store - but what adjustments can be made to get it in 'spec'. I suggest using resources like forums (AVS) to read what people are saying about specific models etc. Use that information to narrow it down to a few sets and then see which one is appealing. Every big TV I've purchased in the last 6 years have all been after reviewing the AVS forum and I have not gone wrong.
Brian @ Oct 22nd 2009 2:58AM
The problem I ran into with this is several of the TVs I was looking at just came out. And one just came out that day I bought my new TV. Plus my tastes on black levels and such aren't the same as most. I do like deep blacks but I always turn up the brightness because my personal taste is to have it brighter then you are supposed to.
But the key factor on when I bought a TV is the return policy. I can take it back within 90 days, no questions ask. The set I bought made me worry because the colors were washed out looking in the store no matter how much I changed the settings. All the other sets looked better but where smaller. When I got home the colors were dead on and didn't have to calibrate it too much. But if it still was washed out looking it was going back to the store the next day.
Simba1986 @ Oct 21st 2009 1:10PM
i work in a best buy, specifically magnolia home theater and agree with still.reprise. I always encourage people who are more technical to bring their own material to test TV's and audio equipment because it's their TV at the end of the day. It is alot easier for dvd's to be tested in Magnolia but you can bring a usb drive to any capable TV and test it(as long as you don't spend all afternoon fiddling with them and and distracting employees and other buyers)
Given all that, most tv's in a store environment are calibrated to look ultra bright and vibrant which is initially attractive but far from reallistic. which brings up the need to have the tv calibrated when you take it home(professional or non pro)
Richard D. Clark @ Oct 21st 2009 1:11PM
I don't think you can evaluate TVs in a store. Optimal picture quality is not a matter of personal taste or opinion -- it is something that can be tested for, but only with the right equipment and under proper conditions. Furthermore, calibration can't really be done by a shopper in a store.
So the question becomes: "which displays in my price range and with my desired feature set are capable of being calibrated to perfection?" And the answer to that question can only really be found in professional reviews and online in forums like AVS, so that's where you start developing your short list.
Sure, go to the store to look at the TV's physical appearance and ergonomics, and if you buy it there unbox it and turn it on at the store, to make sure it's in perfect operating condition with no dead pixels before you leave. But other than that, the best way to evaluate a TV is to do so before you go shopping.
still.reprise @ Oct 21st 2009 1:20PM
While I mostly agree, for your average layman this isn't practical. Hence the suggestion that you bring in your own good material, and working with a (knowledgeable) associate tweak the TV and evaluate picture. Or just buy Panasonic V10's or Pioneer Kuro's while you can still get them and save yourself a lot of time :)
UnnDunn @ Oct 21st 2009 1:12PM
THe main thing I do in-store is change the TV to movie mode instead of "vivid" or "dynamic". I don't evaluate black levels in store (that's practically impossible with their lighting setups) but instead I evaluate color accuracy and the ability to discern detail in dark areas of the picture.
UnnDunn @ Oct 21st 2009 1:17PM
I will also add that J&R in NYC (on Park Row opposite City Hall Park in Lower Manhattan) has a really great TV showroom with low lighting (except, bizarrely, the Panasonic section--yes, they have a dedicated Panasonic flat-panel section--has halogen spotlights pointed right at the TVs), so you can do a really good black-level evaluation there. I would recommend looking for a similar home-theater store in your area where you can evaluate PQ.
L3 @ Oct 21st 2009 1:30PM
Buy an HDTV in a store?!? What century are you shopping in? Good Lord...
Noah Johnson @ Oct 23rd 2009 10:24AM
you know what, yes buy your TV online, i dont like to have roads that are drivable or school systems that actually work either!!!
S4Rs @ Oct 21st 2009 1:34PM
I think buying an HDTV at a store is STUPID. Read reviews and do independent research online about it. Then find the TV you want online for the price you want. Even if its on triple closeout at Best Buy I bet you can still find it cheaper online. Most sites always have free shipping too.
When your in the store, they only show one type of source material, all employees are un-educated, and you are left with no relevance on how this thing will look in your home. Plus Online retailers buy TVs in bulk and ussually they stay in one warehouse until it is shipped to you. A best buy tv is probably transfered 4 times before it gets to your door, so its probably been banged around a lot more.
still.reprise @ Oct 21st 2009 1:44PM
Wow, those are all 100% accurate "facts." You must be a high up employee for a major TV vendor to be so matter-of-fact. I'm glad I read your post and know the truth now.
Those brick-and-mortars are just evil entities staffed by incompetent salespeople out to take as much of your money as possible no matter what the cost. Every last store and every last employee. Without qualification. Awesome.
S4Rs @ Oct 21st 2009 2:57PM
Until I meet an employee at a store that says a Plasma is better, Thats how I am gonna feel. Personally I think the biggest problem with a store like Best Buy is that their employees don't make commission.
When you work on commission its not about selling the most expensive TV, its about selling the most tvs, and selling tvs that you know will make the customer happy. Building a reputation and knowing the product. Its not about memorizing specs. Its about saying to someone "You know you might want the smaller TV if your only gonna be 8 feet from it, or you may want to to save some money and go with the 720p if its a 24 inch kitchen tv. You loose your commission when a customer is unhappy and returns a product.
I worked at Sears for 6 years on commission. in 1998 when I was 16 I was averaging 17.50 an hour. As they started doing poorly they phased out commission in certain areas, and saw a different crop of employee emerge leaving the experienced people like me to deal with their unhappy customers. When I graduated college I quit. It was 2004 and I was making 9.50 an hour when I left. They have no motivation to be good employees. They only have motivation to sell stupid warranty plans. Its not their fault, its the corporate suits.
still.reprise @ Oct 21st 2009 3:40PM
S4Rs, if you'll note my comment above I specifically mention buying plasmas in larger sizes and were you to walk into my store you would find my associates doing the same. We sell more Panasonics than almost any other store in the country. We often suggest the 32" 720p Samsung over the 1080p model that is $150 more. Why? Because you can't tell the difference at that size and frankly, the contrast and color rendition are better on the 720p model.
I understand your frustration with most retailers (and even some Best Buys) but there are well run stores with knowledgeable, caring employees who are passionate about the product they sell and who honestly want to take care of the customer and hopefully most Magnolia Home Theater experiences are just that.
Honestly, it's funny how the customer mindset is with the plasma vs. LCD (especially LED backlit LCDs). Perfect example: we have the Samsung 55B8000 edge lit LED-LCD and the 58B860 plasma sitting next to each other. The B860 is 3" larger, $300 cheaper and has a much better picture. All the time we have people coming in for the B8000 and of course we explain the better value on the B860, it's superior picture, larger screen and cheaper price. And half the time peoples' response is, "But that LED looks so *good*!" Sometimes it's all I can do to say, "Well, we have the 'LED' in stock."
I apologize if I came off sarcastic or disrespectful in my response to your post. However, I am sick and tired of blanket bashing on this and other blogs. If you're ever in the greater Houston area please stop by and check out our store.
turdferg @ Oct 21st 2009 4:31PM
I formerly worked at a Best Buy in the Home Theater department. Though I am not speaking for all Best Buy locations, our "team" was very much pro-plasma given the customers. I had many "arguments" with customers over that fact that plasma is going to give you more accurate colors and an overall better picture for less money than these over-marketed LCD's. Every member of the sales team owned plasma, preferred plasma, and recommended plasma. Many times, customers did not even want to hear about plasma because a friend of a friend of a friend said not to buy one. My roomate bought and LCD after his father (who knows nothing about TV's) told him not to buy a plasma. I refused to let him put it in the living room.
Again, I am not speaking for every Best Buy.
Bill @ Oct 21st 2009 5:30PM
still.reprise, thank you for your honesty. I do believe that not all best buys are evil. certainly not all magnolias either. but I think to do a fair demo on a regular best buy is virtually impossible. sure, you can tweak the settings to a more theater like spec. but one also must remember that engadget or someone's coverage that at some best buy stores, they are using a composite hookups to the 720p TV, versus component of hdmi connection for the 1080p TVs, just so they can sell the 1080p TVs better.
with stories like these, you really are better off by studying online via AVS forums like other posters have suggested. narrow the TVs down, and take a look at it in store.
& magnolia did do me wrong, still.reprise. I was going to pull the trigger on the 111fd, it was listed for $2800 or something I think. I saw that on Friday, went back on Monday, price jumped to $4500 and I dealt with the same sales lady, then the general store manager, who said they can cut the diff in half, but refused to match the price i saw few days back. I guess it's the general manager that has the ultimate say in this, but it left a bit of sour taste in my mouth dealing with magnolia. but it all worked out in the end. and I didn't give magnolia my business.....
Kevin @ Oct 22nd 2009 12:54AM
It's not about wether an employee make commisson off a sale or not. It is about how much he/she knows about the products in the department. First of all you can always tell when someone is makeing something up or does not know if what their saying is correct. Second If you don't like something u can always return it. And third is if you don't like what your hearing you can talk to someone else. Plus you know where they work so if he sells u a pice of crap you can go back and give them your pice of mind.
BarkingGhost @ Oct 21st 2009 1:47PM
The so called HDTVs that are in my home are replacement of the direct-view (aka boob-tubes) not meant for critical viewing. Considering the environments they operate in the home, they are not expected to be real performers.
For critical viewing, I use equipment and environments that allow the devices to yield their abilities. What good is a 2,000:1 CR flat panel in a room with a ton of ambient lighting? Now ask the same silly question on those flat panels advertising 50,000:1 contrast ratios.
Market caters to those not quite up to asking themselves the questions. Oh, here is another one that needs to be asked:
Why buy a 1080P HDTV is you deliberately sit so far away from the unit that your eyes cannot resolve the resolution? Because, like a good little cowsumer, you follow the marketing and not the reality.
Josh Haagen @ Oct 21st 2009 1:53PM
I think that you can combine just about all of these options. However I would ad that when you are in store you can do some comparison of the tvs side by side. They may not be set up correctly but you can set them up on an even playing field. Then once narrowed down you can try some test material. I certainly don't like the idea of buying something so large and expensive online. I have a friend that ordered a TV directly from Sony and was there for the delivery guy and I have to say the scared the crap out of me the way he just handeled the tv to get it off the truck and into the house. I told him to be ready to call Sony for a replacement if needed right away. After you find a couple of options take home the one you thing is the top choice and try it at home. Most stores don't have restocking fees on TV and certainly shouldn't be charging you if you decide to exchange. So try the TV in your home and if you aren't happy then exchange for another one.
James @ Oct 21st 2009 2:10PM
Picking out an HDTV at the store is a bit like.....
picking out a wife at a strip club. :)
Matt @ Oct 21st 2009 2:42PM
Sexy. Can't cook.
CowboyDren @ Oct 21st 2009 3:27PM
I have the THX Optimizer from the Disney's Cars DVD on a thumb drive. I used Nero to get still frames from the VOB files, stored them as numbered BMP images, had a buddy use Photoshop to check the black levels and turn them into low-compression JPEG files. If I keep the THX glasses with me, too, I can do a quickie calibration on any TV that has a USB drive image player. I'm sure it's not perfect, but it's better than the default Torch Mode on almost any TV.
David Susilo @ Oct 21st 2009 2:57PM
How do you evaluate HDTVs in-store?
you don't!
why?
because you can't! The store lighting environment is very different that of yours.
Punchdrunkbrian @ Oct 21st 2009 5:38PM
I bought my plasma from a Video Only up in Portland a few years ago. I didn't buy it on the first trip, I went back a few times. They started to recognize me and build a rapport, so they have me some tips. Now, this was about 3 years ago before usb in the TV, so they recommended that I bring in my ps2 and wander the store for a little while. I was there a couple hours, but they let me be and I ended up with the best TV for my budget (panny TH-42PX60U). My point is that if the salesman really wants the sale he should let you do whatever the hell you want. I went back and bought an Onkyo surround from them because of how they let me abuse their hardware.
Rob @ Oct 21st 2009 8:53PM
The problem with looking at plasmas in an electronics store is the way they're set up: I doubt very much they're hooked up with HDMI cable (I wouldn't be surprised if some stores even used COMPOSITE cable on their sets). At any rate, whatever they do makes the plasma picture look really flat and dull (and I don't think it's just the comparison of the plasma next to the brighter LCDs).
I was all ready to buy an LCD TV a few years ago until — finally — I saw a plasma in a store that was set properly. The picture was stunning (I'm now a proud Pioneer plasma owner).
Unfortunately, I really think the stores WANT you to buy LCDs rather than plasmas. How else to explain the crappy plasma pictures on display?
diplomat @ Oct 22nd 2009 4:15AM
first off id like to say that buying a tv from a local store like bestbuy is way better than buying a tv online... 2nd most cases you have to pay a restocking fee on the tv not to mention you have to ship it back to god knows where and lets say you even wanna keep the tv.. what if something happens to it? your shit out of luck and that means more $$$$$$ odds are in a year the site wont even exist... im not saying dont look online to see what you want do your research, know what your getting into... most people think just the price tag off the tv and thats that they dont wanna spend a dollar more.... they dont want the cables or proper things to get it to run correctly... i must say by reading this and some of the comments people just dont know at best buy it doesnt matter how big or small th sales is you get the same service so your right we want you to get what your looking for an we want to ensure that you get the best quality for your price range.... some people like brighter pictures so they get an lcd some people have alot of light in the room another reason to go with an lcd although plasma might be the best picture and most natural for some it just doesnt work... all tvs should be calibrated for the best picture but not everyone wants to pay the price at the end of the day you get what you pay for and people need to be smart but not narrow minded so ima have to go with my fellow employees from bestbuy on this one
tyler @ Oct 22nd 2009 9:42AM
Mainly the ratio and the brightness ratio, obviously I'm only going to buy a TV with at least a 1080p resolution. It needs to have a few HMDI, preferably three. I always bring my phone with me so I can check the specs. online. KHZ isn't as important to me but to some it seems to be crucial.
Brandon @ Oct 22nd 2009 9:47AM
You find a few highly rated TVs, go to the store, pick one that looks the best in the store, buy it, calibrate it in you living room, and if you don't like it, return it and start over. There is no restocking fee at Best Buy or really any electronic store for that matter. So try it, and if it doesn't work, try again. I did this and now have the newer LG 50PS80. I couldn't be happier. I have two year old panasonic plasma that was demoted from living room duty to bedroom duty(although its awesome to have a 42" in the bedroom). Good luck.
cablebfg @ Oct 22nd 2009 3:43PM
unfortunately, a few electronics stores have a restocking fee. That alone kept me from purchasing my TV or any future big purchases from Comp USA. I believe Frys also has a restocking fee on TVs. No bueno. This is the biggest draw that a brick and mortar store should show off. Online retailers are a hassle in general if something goes wrong or you aren't satisfied.
I walked into Best Buy and bought my TV for basically what everyone else was charging, but have the security that if I am not pleased I can bring it back without any real hassle. Could I find it a BIT cheaper online? Probably, but are you really going to nickle and dime your way into a unhappy ending? What is 15-20 bucks on a TV that costs over 300 anyways?
cablebfg @ Oct 22nd 2009 3:26PM
The best thing about Best Buy is that you can walk in, purchase the TV, and set it up at home. If you don't like the way it looks, bring it back for a full refund and NO restocking fee.
I researched for hours on which 32" LCD to get, because frankly Plasma was out of my price range, and found a great LG for $399. I then saw an older model on display at a Comp USA and thought it looked great in the dark settings, especially compared to a few of the other sets. Did some more research, and finally decided the newer LG was a great price for a great product and went to Best Buy to pick up the last one in the area.
Set it up at home, and the blacks are impressive on an actual dvd upconverted. However, to get the blacks to where I wanted them, I had to go into the "Expert" settings. I'm no expert, but I certainly am happy.
Generally, go into a store with some knowledge BEFORE hand. Never buy something that expensive on impulse. Then, see what an employee says and see how you feel. Do some research on what he/she suggested to make sure, and then buy a TV. Ideally, it should take a weekend. Start researching Friday, go look at TVs Saturday, and after a little more research go buy it Sunday and set it up for Sunday Night Football with Al Michaels and the gang. haha
Also, AVS forums, CNET reviews or other professional sites, and even reviews on New Egg, Amazon, and Best Buy can certainly help and see what ACTUAL people feel once they got it set up in their homes, etc.
Noah Johnson @ Oct 23rd 2009 10:31AM
most people buy TVs within 36 hours of starting their hunt
demon @ Oct 23rd 2009 6:58PM
Personally, when I bought my XBR8, the place I bought it from (a local seller, not a big-box place) was willing to let me bring in whatever I want to test on a floor model. I brought a half-dozen BDs, my WD TV HD player and a drive with several videos, including an HDnet test pattern, etc., played with the settings, and so on. That's one nice thing about going with a smaller seller, they're more willing to let you get hands-on with the gear.
YllowCakeLvr @ Oct 24th 2009 1:25AM
I was inside a Magnolia showroom inside a Best Buy the other day when I observed a salesman tell a customer not to buy a plasma because they dont last. How are regular customers supposed to evaluate televisions when theyre being steered to only one choice. We have the advantage of thinking up things like bringing our own source content to a store and playing with settings, reading reviews on 7 different sites, buying calibration discs, and following tech blog sites, but when a regular customer comes in and just wants the best, shouldnt he/she get it? I'm not saying plasma is the best (well it is) but we damn sure should be shown all possibilities in a showroom's top 5 which I douvble dog dare anyone to say doesnt include plasma.
Bob @ Oct 25th 2009 6:31PM
I tend to NOT trust the image in the store because new TV's are set to 'torch' mode to be eye-catching.
I love that Magnolia has the better units in a darker area of the store to mimic home conditions.
Other than checking the review magazines, here is what I do:
I use the Viewing Distance Calculator to get the THX optimal distance for 45,50,55,60 inch televisions and bring a tape measure. I stand back the proper distance and look at the screen. Then I edge to one side and keep an eye on the opposite corner until the image starts to darken. This tells me what the viewing angle is on the TV. Since I have a family - good image from a side seat is important.
Even if I brought some HD test patterns on a USB drive - a superior TV may not look good based on the factory settings so I dont think this would help.
Other things to check:
- Does the TV have separate brightness/color/contrast settings per input? My Sat receiver has different signals from my BluRay player or Xbox. The better TV's have separate adjustments.
- Can I jump straight to an input or do I have to toggle up/down through all the sources? A universal remote like Harmony Logitech work better by being able to jump to an input.
FUNCTOR @ Nov 3rd 2009 4:04PM
You can't base your descision on what you see in the store.
You have to research online which model is best. Store lighting is retardedly different than any lighting you'd have in your home.
Do yourself a favour and don't even go looking at TV's until you've made up your mind.